Is App Development for v5 Dead?

[Como]

Of course, with an impending release of a major new version of Invision, app development was always going to slow down. But is there a serious problem now?

Last year when Invision closed their Marketplace, it felt like a mistake to me. But having been a client of Invision for only a few months at the time, I did not comment because my knowledge of the product was too shallow. I claim no great depth now, but I have observed both the instant change when the Marketplace closed, and the pessimism from developers about the future since the beta release of v5. And although I do not properly understand the technicalities of it, the removal of hooks seems have caused a high level of consternation from developers. This single change, it would seem, has put an end to a bespoke app coded for my own community.

My community is 20 years old, but less than 18 months with Invision. I had a mostly equivalent bespoke app when using SMF. Did I make the right decision to move to Invision? I am sure all here here would agree that in the round, Invision is leaps and bounds ahead of SMF. But how many communities will be very negatively impacted due to bespoke and other vital applications becoming obsolete and with no way for refactor them for v5? There are some other larger applications I had my eye on where there is now considerable doubt that they will be (or even can me) ported to work within the constraints of v5.

I am not yet sure what I will do my own community to negate the dropping our bespoke app. But I suspect many other community operators are in a similar situation.

I do not know why I am writing this - looking for reassurance, I guess.

[Guest]

Just checking but have you taken the time to contact the developers of the applications you are referring to?

15 hours ago, Como said:

There are some other larger applications I had my eye on where there is now considerable doubt that they will be (or even can me) ported to work within the constraints of v5.

...and have you taken the time to get a developer to look at your bespoke application to determine whether this is actually a concern?

15 hours ago, Como said:

...the removal of hooks seems have caused a high level of consternation from developers. This single change, it would seem, has put an end to a bespoke app coded for my own community.

Personally, I think you're over-egging the pudding a little. Try contacting developers

Edited December 9, 2024 by Nathan Explosion

[Como]

9 minutes ago, Nathan Explosion said:

Just checking but have you taken the time to contact the developers of the applications you are referring to?

...and have you taken the time to get a developer to look at your bespoke application to determine whether this is actually a concern?

I did. The app is heavily reliant upon hooks and it does not look hopeful.

9 minutes ago, Nathan Explosion said:

Personally, I think you're over-egging the pudding a little. Try contacting developers

I have recently read the hooks thread at Invision, with many comments from developers. Though, the comments were mostly from some time ago. I have also recently communicated with another developer about a couple of apps being ported to v5 - he's not hopeful for them either.

I hope you are correct about me over-egging the pudding. And as I wrote in my previous message, I guess I am looking for some reassurance. I suppose you have somewhat provided this, even if a little obliquely.

Edited December 9, 2024 by Como

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, Como said:

And as I wrote in my previous message, I guess I am looking for some reassurance

Is app development for v5 dead? No...there you go.

[Como]

1 minute ago, Nathan Explosion said:

Is app development for v5 dead? No...there you go.

I could have titled the thread: Is App Development Impeded in V5? (Or some such.)

It was just a headline grabbing title is all. The proper question might be, how much is app development impeded?

As it has been explained to me, it is no longer possible to alter template output, only add to it. Maybe that was a bit dumbed-down for my consumption. I don't know. But it does sound rather restrictive to my untrained ear.

But thank you for your perspective, @Nathan Explosion. Your response is somewhat reassuring. I guess it is still early days and there are still unknowns and some solutions might not be immediately transparent anyway (given the large changes).

[IC Essentials]

1 hour ago, Como said:

As it has been explained to me, it is no longer possible to alter template output,

Wrong, there are still several ways to modify templates. 

 

Quote

Is Plugin Development dead?

Yes, and that's a good thing:)

Quote

Is App Development for v5 Dead?

No. I have already > 80 applications and there's almost nothing that was possible in v4 but can't be achieved in v5. Sure there are few cases which nobody at IPS had in mind while v5 was planed and worked on, sure there are also few cases which will DEFINITELY not be changeable in v5 because they're not meant to be changed at all.
The proxy classes in v4 were amazing, but IMO way too powerful. They were (ab)used and stuff was changed which was never meant to be changed. it also created a lot pain in regards to backwards compatibility and compatibility between different applications extending the same method/modifying the same template.

Is it better for the clients?

I would say so! 3rd party code doesn't need to be adjusted each time IPS changes a method or template, which means much better stability and even if a 3rd party dev stops supporting the file, the chances that it's continuing to work with future IC5 versions are much higher, than it was in IPS4.

Is it better for 3rd party devs?

 It's a different approach and 3rd party devs have to adjust their workflows, but that's happening all the time. I'm quite sure that it was the same while the IPB3 to IPS4 transition phase!

[Como]

12 minutes ago, IC Essentials said:

Wrong, there are still several ways to modify templates.

As I speculated, it might have been dumbed-down / short-handed for my consumption.

12 minutes ago, IC Essentials said:

Yes, and that's a good thing:)

Well, I did not actually ask about plugins - I understood that plugins would be gone. And I use a few myself. It is my understanding that they usually can be refactored into apps - thought not necessarily worth the effort for the developer to do so.

12 minutes ago, IC Essentials said:

No. I have already > 80 applications and there's almost nothing that was possible in v4 but can't be achieved in v5.

That's encouraging. I did note that Invision were responding to some of the earlier reactions to the removal of hooks and have created some new tools too. But I have read comments at a few developer sites which were not very encouraging. Perhaps those comments are out of date.

12 minutes ago, IC Essentials said:

Sure there are few cases which nobody at IPS had in mind while v5 was planed and worked on, sure there are also few cases which will DEFINITELY not be changeable in v5 because they're not meant to be changed at all.
The proxy classes in v4 were amazing, but IMO way too powerful. They were (ab)used and stuff was changed which was never meant to be changed. it also created a lot pain in regards to backwards compatibility and compatibility between different applications extending the same method/modifying the same template.

I am enough of a realist to understand that Invision's priorities are not necessarily the same priorities of their wider user base,* and certainly not mine. I am just trying to get a better handle on the future. There is so much I like about Invision, and I am - as a non-coder - really looking forward to being to make better use of the CMS functions available in v5. Just looking for reassurance about app development in general, as I have some ideas I wish to explore.

* Though, there must be a reasonable amount of overlap, else they would have no customers.

12 minutes ago, IC Essentials said:

Is it better for the clients?

I would say so! 3rd party code doesn't need to be adjusted each time IPS changes a method or template, which means much better stability and even if a 3rd party dev stops supporting the file, the chances that it's continuing to work with future IC5 versions are much higher, than it was in IPS4.

Sounds reasonable.

12 minutes ago, IC Essentials said:

Is it better for 3rd party devs?

 It's a different approach and 3rd party devs have to adjust their workflows, but that's happening all the time. I'm quite sure that it was the same while the IPB3 to IPS4 transition phase!

I have read comments from developers indicating that they might even pull out of developing apps for Invision. Hopefully, they will reassess their views (perhaps they already have) as they get a better handle on the new development tools.

I suppose I was already primed for being concerned after the Marketplace closed. For many ordinary users (and some developers) that move did cause us some concern. And there appeared to be a cooling in app development immediately thereafter. But I suppose this was inevitable at the time anyway - after all, v5 was originally slated to be released early in 2024. (I recall a comment from Invision that v5 would not be released at the end of 2023 because of the holidays - at least hinting at a release early in 2024. But this was before they decided to create a new text editor and make some other changes too, I think.)

Thank you for your comments, @IC Essentials

[JoelR]

My assessment - and this is entirely from the outside - is that there is still a core 5 - 6 Marketplace developers who are active and developing (about 5 - 6).  It's a smaller group but high quality.  

Where I think IPS 5 will fall relatively short are the hobbyist developers; there were several users who posted a few files here and there in the early days of v4 and made their files 'for fun.'  There were probably over a dozen of v4 devs who fit this category.  You won't see the same thing happen on v5; developers really have to be intentional now to have a presence in IPS, and the hobbyist developers won't take the time to establish their own website jsut to share one or two files.  

At the same time, relative to other legacy forum ecosystems, I genuinely think the IPS third-party marketplace is stable and flat.  

[Jon Erickson]

It has gotten better IMHO. Invision is slowly updating to the modern century (they are still WAY behind in modern PHP) but IC5 provides a better DX. Time to production has shortened for me. Still relying heavily on external packages to accomplish simple things more efficiently.

[Como]

Thank you for your reassurance, @JoelR and @Jon Erickson.